An exerpt from a conversation me and joel had about religion. I'm too lazy to write my arguments properly so i'll just paste everything... Get to view my lousy spelling in all its glory!

Joel> says:
hey, i read a little of "God's debris"
where you find it?

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
haha.. on the dilbert blog
what did you think of it?

Joel> says:
his philosophy quite misleading ya
you read the whole of it? i only had time to read 44/144 pages.

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
yup.. i finished it..

Joel> says:
woah

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
yup.. its supposed to be a flawed thought experiment
but im still trying to find the flaw

Joel> says:
then watcha think of it?

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
mmm i read it quite rushed.. so i dun really understand the probability thing..

Joel> says:
ya, i think the old man's quite knowledgeable about God's sovereignty and all that...

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
haha.. the one thing i feel sounds true is abt the thing abt god's omnipotence

Joel> says:
what about it?

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
oh.. about free will
whether god has free will
and whether humans have free will
page 14
haha

Joel> says:
ya, i was thinking, what's your resolution when you face problems like this?

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
what do u mean?

Joel says:
as in how do you try to resolve problems like this?
yourself, or talk to other ppl...?

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
well, for me it shows that god has its limits
or that the truth is so complicated that this seems weird
like you know what we learn in chemistry is mostly not true
but it is put that way to make it simpler

Joel> says:
hm... i was thinking about the possibility of the second one. cos if God has limitations then that wouldn't make him God le...

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
but i always wonder.. what does god want us to do
since hes omnipotent wun it lead to him not doing anything?

Joel> says:
as in He's omnipotent in that our very breath and life is in His hands, where we live, how long we live all that are all decided by Him...

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
ok....
so we have no free will?

Joel> says:
no, but that's God's business, becos He'll still hold us accountable for the way we live life here on earth.

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
i dun really get it...
but on the other hand, i think i do...
what we do is predetermined but we wun know it at that point

Joel> says:
ya, but it's so amazing that i can't fathom God's understanding.
God is in control of everything, no doubt
we will be accountable to Him
both are equally true

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
now thats confusing
we are accountable for something that we have no control over, yet are given the illusion that we are
so in actual fact the point of descision
is like a test
a test of ur spirit or character or wadever
sort of like an mcq
whatever you choose, the right answer is already there...

Joel> says:
but if you got the wrong ans, you'll still fail the test.

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
exactly
life is one big mcq test
the correct answer is predetermined
you are free to choose whatever answer you want..
but it will have no imact on the final answer
and if you choose wrongly, you GO TO HELL!!!

Joel> says:
but i think the biggest choice that God will hold us accountable for is about Jesus Christ.
or say the biggest choice in life...

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
mm that one option topic
heavy weightage

Joel> says:
haha
i mean God providing His son to die for sinners, that's another thing i can nv understand

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
mmhmmm

Joel> says:
and whether we choose to obey and believe or not is the choice

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
i got another question
u cant understand y jesus died for us?
btw tts not the question

Joel> says:
haha

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
the question is whether jesus knew he was the son of god when he died
coz if he knew, he would know that after he died he will rise from the dead, or that he will not come to harm
so in that case, theres no big deal about his death

Joel> says:
ya you're rite, he was both 100% God and 100% man at the same time.
so when he died, he did know he would rise again becos he's God and he himself predicted it

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
uh huh

Joel> says:
but he was also man, so he entirely felt the pain and rejection the nails and torment. everything...

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
yup... i agree... let me ask u a stupid story question
imagine, you had really ugly teeth

Joel> says:
ok, very hard to imagine haha

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
the destist says that he can guarantee that he will fix your teeth but he has to pull out a tooth to make it work

Joel> says:
ok

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
so say you agree with it
you agree to suffer the pain of having a tooth pulled in exchange for nice teeth
ok.. thats scenation 1
scenario

Joel> says:
ok

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
scenario 2
you have ugly teeth..
you visit your local mama shop owner who says he used to be a toothpaste salesman so he knows all about teeth

Joel> says:
ok

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
he says that maybe if you pulled a tooth your teeth will all get bette
*better
he says that cannot use anestatic

Joel> says:
ok

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
will you be still willing to make the leap of faith as in the first case?

Joel> says:
less willing, becos of the pain
and don't know the second one reliable or not

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
exactly
what i feel is
the greatest thing in the 2nd testiment
is that jesus made a huge sacrifice for us
he practically let himself be killed
thats noble and all..
but if he knew exactly the outcome, and that his pain was temporary
its not that much a sacrifice...

Joel> says:
but that was the only way for us to get back to God
Jesus Himself feared the suffering as a man

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
can u explain why hes death constituted washing away our sins?
go on..

Joel> says:
ok
as long as anyone sins
that's all of us

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
oops.. i meant go on as in asking u to continue talking, not challenging u..
uh huh...

Joel> says:
we deserve death, unless somebody totally perfect dies in our place
as a substitute for us
and as a sacrfice, because God requires it

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
are we than not cheating death?

Joel> says:
why?

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
coz god is law
law says nonperfect ppl must die
a perfect person dies for us
we go heaven
thats bypassing the law..
or can we say god is bounded by his own laws
but he wants to deliver us...
so he finds a loophole in his own laws
to ferry us through...
hey! that i can live with!

Joel> says:
ok, first, God demands obedience from all man.
God institutes His law, knowing already from the start that man will already break it
from the start He already had His salvation plan in mind
the law was to show that we all are sinful and cannot achieve any good to be worth God's appraisal by our own efforts or merit

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
uh huh...

Joel> says:
and the consequence of breaking the law is physical death and eternal separation from God
God is angry with us

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
why?
if he rigged the test so we will fail it
y is he angry?

Joel> says:
because we're not exempt from the responsibility to respond and obey God, which we talked about at the start rmb?

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
ooook....

Joel> says:
it's just like common test

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
so he is angry because we are prooving him right?
that we are imperfect
haha.. wad common test?

Joel> says:
because we chose to defy Him
the HOD wants the teachers to kill everyone in the common test
so many ppl fail, but it still does not take away our responsibility as a student to do well
and excel

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
well.. when u put it THAT way...
but the hod will do that to make us wake up right?
to make us not complacent
got wants us not to take heaven for granted!?
*god
is that the great revalation?

Joel> says:
ya i guess so, but an analogy doesn't parallel everything, haha

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
relavation

Joel> says:
actually not everyone will go to heaven
http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
why not?
because those without Jesus Christ do not have their sins paid for
nothing else can pay for sins
that's why christians find it so urgent to tell ppl about jesus christ

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
but if those ppl in heaven have their sins paid for my jesus
*by
it would mean that they are sinners at heart
just becoz sum1 forgives u doesnt mean u didnt do it

Joel> says:
but covered with Jesus's righteousness

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
would it be fair then to say that both heaven and hell is filled with sinners

Joel> says:
God's see them as righteous, cos their sins are paid for

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
cover from who?

Joel> says:
as in
when a person believes
our sins, past present, future are all placed onto jesus christ
and his perfect righteousness is added to our record so that when God looks at us, we're righteous

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
oh no
than what happens to jesus?
wouldnt that make him go to hell?

Joel> says:
he bore the full fledge of God's wrath on the cross.
he faced death

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
but the wrath of god for sin is not death
its eternal seperation from god

Joel> says:
forsaken by God at that hour on the cross
as in
he faced physical death and also separation from God
but Jesus, being divine, triumphed over death
on the 3rd day

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
but u said that when he died jesus knew that he was, well, holy and stuff
y would he face seperation from god?

Joel> says:
i can't say he was holy on the cross, because he took on the sins of people
he was the death sacrfice bearing our sin
to take the penalty

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
does god know about this?

Joel> says:
yes certainly
he poured his wrath onto his son on our behalf

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
but his son was not seperated from him for all eternity
in fact when his son died he was well on his way on joining him

Joel> says:
why you say so?

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
ok.. where was jesus in the 3 days between his death and his ressurection

Joel> says:
well the bible din say, but i guess he'll be in the tomb buried

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
and his spirit?

Joel> says:
i dunno, some say he went down to hell first, but i won't speculate

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
mmmmmm

Joel> says:
unless i've studied it carefully on that

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
i guess that might be satisfactory

Joel> says:
may i ask a personal question?

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
yea?

Joel> says:
btw, that's not the question. lol
ok

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
haha

Joel> says:
what's stopping you from coming to Jesus?

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
skeptism

Joel> says:
about?

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
i am automatically distrustful of anyone whom i dunno who says he is here to help me if i would just abandon myself to him
but mostly just skeptism..
i havent had my personal miracle

Joel> says:
well, not everyone gets miracles you know
but i'll continue to pray for you yeah

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
gosh... haha.. what you just said!

Joel> says:
why?

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&articleID=000AFE22-9D1E-146C-9D1E83414B7F0000&colID=5
that would be the coincidence of the day
i just read that article not half an hour ago

Joel> says:
oh i c
well, i mean prayer's just betw me and God
so ya... no worries

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
haha.. ok...
thanks anyway...

Joel> says:
just another question

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
uh huh..

Joel> says:
if there were an opportunity like a gospel rally
or a session to answer your questions
would you come?

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
i wouldnt dare to ask them in public.. my questions sounds like im just out to contradict other people...
im sure i sound that way too in physics class

Joel> says:
i understand, but can ask one on one, no problem

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
with someone i dunno?
haha..

Joel> says:
what's wrong?

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
but if im doubtful in the first place..
i would resist what they are trying to teach

Joel> says:
really? not even to clarify your doubts...?

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
well, maybe i will

Joel> says:
i could pass you a brochure tml if it's fine with ya

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
haha.. ok! second coincidence of the day
hmm ok..

Joel> says:
wad's the 2nd coincidence?

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
i was just thinking of the line 'as i walk in the valley of the shadow of death...'

Joel> says:
ya?

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
you ever heard the song ganster's paradise?

says:
nope. haha y?

http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf says:
well, it starts with that same line...
haha.. it almost seems as if this is my personal miracle..
but of course im still skeptical.. sorry

Joel> says:
it's ok
it's becos of some incident that caused you to be skeptical i guess?

Devil's advocate says:
its just the way i am.. i think im not slated for forgiveness
maybe...
i have no idea myself...

Joel> says:
don't worry, there is no one so bad that God can't save

Devil's advocate says:
its not that im bad
im unaccepting
which i guess is worse

Joel> says:
hey but thanks for sharing with me

Devil's advocate says:
haha.. no problem man..
it helped me too

There. I formatted it somewhat. Hopefully someone can make everything light! This sure gives me food for thought when I'm not thinking about mana.